Did Budda ever get old?

Sydney

This was NOT the exact question which I raised to  Kejok Rinpoche!! The event was as follows:

One day, there wasn't any other student around at the Centre; a week day afternoon I recall. I entered Seefu's room and started chatting with him . Since nobody else was around and so the chats was kind of unformal , but still around the topics of Budda teachings. For some reasons, I said to Seefu that I did not want to get old and I asked him if any Budda/ Tantra methods could stop people aging. [ Of course, I had read books about the history of Budda and learnt that he 'died' at the 80s; so I kind of knew the answer before I asked the question]

Khejok Rinpoche looked at me and asked in broken English " To your view, did Budda ever get old?" Without any hestitation, I answered ' Budda did get old'. Seefu then looked at me with a look of disbelief for a while and we were both speechless. Then came the translator and Seefu asked the translator to repeat his question to me and I gave him the same answer on that. Seefu again looked at me  but this time with a look of total disappointment and said to me somethings like ' Go back to think'

It has been 18 years since I started thinking of the answer and I had met Seefu many times within this period but I still could not understand the essence of this discussion. It was not until last winter when I drove all the way to the 'new' Sydney Darma centre and visited him. [ Why new? It has been there for 10+ years!! Because I have never been there] When I met Seefu, he surely looked older than he used to and I guess, so do I. All of the sudden, I got the answer. I got the answer for the 18 year-old question.

Could  you share my thought? Open for discussion.

慧灯元照

ur question so surprised me
no wonder why seefu looked at you ，with a look of total disappointment
子曾经曰过：欲求不老术，移步全真观。:lol

quanm

“……and learnt that he 'died' at the 80s; so I kind of knew the answer before I asked the question”
这个时候师兄所想的答案是什么呢？你知道‘died'不是真的died，只是为无常做的示现，那一定知道“老”也不是真的老呀。如果连生老病死都没有脱离的话，怎么可能是佛呢？
你回答师父说佛陀会变老，师父惊讶且失望大概是觉得，怎么连这么基本的都不懂啊？所以让你：回去给我好好想想！:$

是否是这个意思呢？为什么18年后在中心就突然明白了呢？我隐约觉得Sydney师兄要表达的不该这么简单，好像很有深意……不过我太迟钝了，没有看出来:L 。

Sydney

Thanks for the responses.

It would be nice if I could use Chinese Characters here because there are some in-depth feelings which I'd like to write and English might not has all the proper wordings......sorry...I'd try my best anyway.
Just prior to asking my silly question on 'how to avoid old age', I was making requests to Khejok Rinpoche to teach the following topics. [This might not be polite at all but since we were young and we were quite used to the foreign education system]
1. Teachings on Emptiness
2.  Methods of transforming worldly minds into Wisdom.
3.  A particular Highest Yoga Tantra ( which is well known to improve one's wisdom)

You see, I was very stupid to even making requests in such manner. Well, forgive me as I was a beginner. Seefu did not quite provide direct answers for the 1st two requests but said he would teach that particular Highest Yoga Tantra later if the Karma was right and he later did teach it. Nowadays, we know that the correct path is to learn Lam Rim / 菩提道次第廣論 as our corner-stone before learning Tantra. Unfortunately, we were upside down in our learnings. Anyway, Seefu still tried to provide corrections to my wrong view, especially on the topic of emptiness.

When we use the word- "old", it contains a 'time' and 'self' element. A 90 year-old ME is older than the 10-year-old ME. I make aware of this fact by looking at my skin and all the events I have had experienced. In Science, we say there is a time arrow and the its direction follows the increase of Entropy. This is how normal people see things; everything is contradicted to one another, everything is not correlated. But is it the truth?
When I was questioned if Budda could get old, I perceived the term 'Budda' as the historic Budda, the one who lived his life at India thousands of years ago and not the meaning which indicates the true nature of our mind. The true nature is that we all possess the potential to attain Buddhahood. [ Of course, this is a big topic and we Gelupa has a different view on this to Ningma's but that is another topic, let's not going into details here] From a worldly mind, my worldly answer had to be 'yes, Buddha lived and died at old age'. If you perceive Buddha is Buddha and myself is myself, then it is certainly a historical event. However,if you perceive things differently; say seeing things without that aforesaid contradiction, then the answer becomes different.

When I visited Rinpoche last winter, our physical looks and the surroundings had been so different. What haven't changed? The Truth of Emptiness has not changed and the 'Buddha' inside oneself has never changed. Every sentient being still has the potential to attain enlighment/ Buddhahood regardlessly. In other words, Buddha had never come and has never gone. Seefu was still sitting in front of me and smiling.

**P.S. I have taken away some lines on the concept of 'time' here. Perhaps, the meaning of 'time' only bothers me and not bothering you. I always ask 'Does Time[ as a dimension]  ever exist?' Being an applied Scientist and working daily with Quantum Physic products ( like radio, TV, PC etc etc), I have to admit Quantum Physic is correct, otherwise; transistors would not work and this computer /internet would not work. But then if you accept it, your worldly perception becomes strange:
1. Schrodinger's wave function has no delta T, so 'time' is a no factor ( non-exist) in quantum scale. [ Well then, why Time is experienced in worldly ( normal life)  scale? do we just mistakenly perceive it?) And then why things would have a different life path if it is being observed by a wisdom being ( human)? How is our mind interacting electrons and photons????) Perhaps, I should not bring these up to confuse you but I have a feelings that the meaning of emptiness is embedded here.

ARBZND

这么长的汉文我也没精神看，更别说鸟文了。
佛有四身，从这个方面应该能解释化身所示现的涅槃。

Sydney

Thanks for the response. I'll find a computer that allows me to type in Chinese. English is only  a business language and not a medium that we can discuss difficult and complex matters.

Nevermind about my writing on Physic and Buddha teachings. My view is probably wrong and I only wrote it here just to show you that The path of understanding Emptiness is unique to anyone and it is not always wrong to ask questions because that's how we learn.

In regard to the matter of 'OLD'/ getting 'OLD', the question itself contained a bit of background ideas in it. Indeed I had gone through lots of Buddha teachings to find the answers( i.e. when I look back, I think Seefu was encouraging me to research and learn rather than getting an easy answer and forget about it the next day!). Allow me to cut and paste a few good ones here for discussion sake:

佛曰：自今已後，我諸弟子，相傳行道，即是如來法身常在世而不滅也。《遺教經》

如來法身，非來，非去，諸法實性不動故。真如如來也，法界如來也，法性如來也，無虛妄性，如來也，無變異性，如來也，平等性，如來也，離生性，如來也，實 性，如來也，住性，如來也，實際，如來也，虛空界，如來也，不思議界，如來也，無生性，如來也，無滅性，如來也，如實性，如來也，遠離性，如來也，寂定 性，如來也，空性，如來也，無來無去也。《大般若經》

眾生心體，從本已來，不生不滅，自性清淨....彼心名如來藏，所謂具足無量無邊，不可思議，無量清淨業也

法界即如來，此是如來真身也。《最勝王經》

一切法皆如也，諸佛境界亦然，乃至無有一法於如中生滅者；眾生妄分別，而有是佛，有是世界；了達法性，無佛無世界也。《華嚴經》

實相是三世諸佛之母也。《般若經》

菩薩以正念觀世間，一切法皆從業緣得，觀察一切法，悉從因緣起，無生故無滅。《華嚴經》

佛言，一切法之自性，本來寂靜，自性涅槃也。涅槃故，不可認自性，故說無自性。計執諸法有，眾生相故有，是假名而實無也。次諸法從因緣而成者，假有而實無也。次諸法本性不可見，不可聞，無生亦無滅也。《解深密經》



**
心生滅者，依如來藏故，有生滅心，所謂不生不滅與生滅和合，非一非異，名為阿賴耶識。此識有二種義，能攝一切法，生一切法，云何為二，一者覺義，二者不覺義。所言覺義者，謂心體離念，離念相者，等虛空界，無所不遍，法界一相，即是如來平等法身也。《大乘起信論》

我觀一切眾生，眾生皆於貪欲、瞋恚、愚癡等之煩惱中，具是佛智、佛眼、佛身，儼然不動。善男子！一切眾生在煩惱中，有常不污如來藏，德相備足，與我無異。 譬如真金，墮不淨中，隱沒不現，歷年真金之質不壞，而無知者，唯有天眼者，能知有真金。眾生原有佛性，非由他得。譬如有人，自己衣裏，有如意珠，而不覺 知。又如倉藏竇，不自知之，馳走求食也。《首楞嚴經》

眾生心體，從本已來，不生不滅，自性清淨。

彼心名如來藏，所謂具足無量無邊，不可思議，無量清淨業也 《占察經》

**

This term --如來藏 requires a lot of thinking. If the true true true self is a mind called 如來藏, does it exist as itself and NOT depends of karmic actions??? This is the most talked about point among the 4 schools of linkages. We Gelupa believes in ultimate-emptiness; in other words, even this 如來藏 cannot be self-existing but other school seems to have different view on this; especially 覺曩派 and 寧瑪派的「大圓滿見」!! We Gelupa teaches 中觀應成派 and its concept of 如來藏 is quite unique. Although I am a Gelupa student, I understand other schools' 如來藏 better than the Gelup's view on this matter. I believe I still have a lot to learn.

Gongche

Up!

noname

金刚经：“寿者相” （鸠摩罗什译本）